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Full of liberating and challenging opinions, Derek Sivers joins us for a discussion on passion, fearlessness, integrity, and the importance of their roles in entrepreneurship and life. If you think you have read all about those topics before, I urge you to read them again here, for the first time. Enjoy!
Allentrepreneur : It`s a pleasure to have you with us Derek! One of the things few people know about CD Baby was perhaps your reluctance to start it. You mentioned a few times in prior interviews that the company you are now most famous for started as an accident. You did it as a favor to friends. However if CD Baby had never come to pass, you would still be doing what you do best: music. And this is where I want to start this discussion. Can you tell us about the importance of nurturing a passion or the potential perils of not having one?
Derek: It’s dangerous to think in terms of “passion” and “purpose” because they sound like such huge overwhelming things. If you think love needs to look like “Romeo and Juliet”, you’ll overlook a great relationship that grows slowly.
If you think you haven’t found your passion yet, you’re probably expecting it to be overwhelming.
Instead, just notice what excites you and what scares you on a small moment-to-moment level.
If you find yourself diving into book about Photoshop and playing around with the program for hours, go for it! Dive in deeper. Maybe that’s your new calling.
If you think for one moment about something like putting on a huge conference or being a Hollywood screenwriter and you find the idea terrifies you, there’s a good chance that would be a worthy endeavor for you.
You grow by doing what excites you and what scares you.
For me, CD Baby was just a curiosity: that little hobby that kept me up until 2am every night, programming and experimenting. It just grew from there.
Allentrepreneur : I have followed your blog for some time and as posts went by, I realized that one of the reasons the advice you give seems to resonate so well is because it is rooted firmly in realism and doesn’t take itself too seriously. My question then is how much importance do you give dreaming, and when or how do you reconcile doing and imagining?
Derek: I love that “dreaming” has two different meanings. Dreaming at night is surreal and absurd. You’re talking to your friend Tracy but now she’s a cat, and knew that Tuesdays the sky opens up so you can fly when holding oranges.
Dreaming as imagining can be that creative. It’s great to try ridiculous options. What if I move to Brazil to start a surf shop? What if I franchise my new company worldwide before it even starts? What if instead of paying money, people paid compliments?
Then, only when you hit upon something that makes you say, “Hell yeah! That’d be awesome!”, should you commit your real-world time and money to the actual doing.
Allentrepreneur: I would like to point out the circumstance during which CD Baby was brought to life: you saw a gap in the existing way of doing things, and decided to fill it yourself. There’s a crucial business lesson here. Wait until there’s a demand. What other piece of business advice has helped you most along the way?
Derek: Know that when you create a business, you’re creating a little universe with its own rules. You can make it your own utopia.
Just because other companies put Terms of Service agreements and Privacy Policies on their website doesn’t mean you have to. Just because other companies have titles, meetings, or mission statements doesn’t mean you have to. You could declare your official return policy to be “tell us a funny story and we’ll give you a full refund.”
Start sentences with, “In a perfect world…” – and aim to make that happen.
Allentrepreneur : There is something else about the way you handled business that hasn’t been mentioned often but I saw as undeniable to your success: fearlessness. I’m not talking about that Utopian quality present only in Spartan warriors, but rather the fact that whether or not CD Baby took off was not essential to you because you were already a full-time musician. You were already earning a living doing what you love. Am I wrong in assuming this played a crucial role in your daily management of the company? Is there yet another lesson in there for the rest of us?
Derek: You’re right. It shaped the core DNA of the company. CD Baby was my Utopian experiment. I wasn’t depending on it for income, so it was really just designed as a “musician’s dream come true” service, with profitability as a side-effect.
Everyone who worked there (at least for the first six years) really understood that this was the mindset and mission, so all decisions should be made with this in mind.
A customer asked for some Big Red chewing gum in with their CDs? Hop down to the store and pick some up. They’ll be thrilled. (See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCIXkbfgR6g for a great example of this.)
The culture of a company is created by consistent actions, not a mission statement. By detaching yourself from the profitable outcome a bit, you can make much better day-to-day decisions based only on what would be a dream-come-true for your customers. Then you just have to trust that it will pay off, too.
Allentrepreneur : One of the most famous advice you give is: Whatever scares you most, go do it. I would be interested in hearing a particular moment of your life when things were particularly scary for you and the essential steps you took to convince yourself that what you were doing was something worth doing.
Derek: It’s more about lots of small moments, and there aren’t convincing steps – just immediate action.
A musician scared to call a big venue to ask how to get booked there. Seeing one of your heroes in public and being scared to say hello.
These are the little moments that usually make all the difference. By doing that stuff that most are scared to do, you set yourself up for rare rewards.
Again, like the “passion/purpose” topic, don’t think that destinies are only created by massively important do-or-die moments like in the movies. It’s your integrity that shapes the thousand small things.
Allentrepreneur : You gave a speech on perfection at Indie Buzz Bootcamp in 2008 where you pointed out that some of the least successful people are the ones treating everything with a do-or-die attitude (where I sadly recognized part of myself), while the most successful are those who are just trying something. I found that extremely liberating. Would you care to elaborate a bit more on this issue?
Derek: Life is unpredictable. You never know how things will turn out. You could spend a year working on the most brilliant idea ever, only to find the public hates it. Or you could do something on a Sunday afternoon that may change the world.
So I think about quantity: trying lots and lots of little things. Not knowing which will get a great response, you need to force yourself to not get too stuck on any one idea, and go for quantity instead.
One way to do this is to start sentences with, “Let’s see what happens if…”
It’ll be more fun. It’ll detach you from the outcome. And it’ll get you to be more creative than if you think of everything as heavy and important.
Those are great qualities that’ll set you apart in a world where everyone is doing the opposite.
Allentrepreneur : In your interview with Alex Shalman you talk about pushing against the tide, about rebelling. Isolating yourself when everyone was going out while living in NYC; harnessing ambition while slackers surrounded you in Oregon, etc. What would you say is the most valuable thing this mindset gave you? Has this attitude always been with you or was it something learned along the way?
Derek: I’ve always been that way, but I guess the common theme was me working while others weren’t. By seeing myself as unusual, I didn’t mind everyone teasing me for not hanging out, partying, relaxing, or vacationing. I just stayed focused on practicing and creating, which of course pays off very well.
Allentrepreneur : There’s a quote I came up with that I’ve been putting to the test everyday: Life is interesting, as long as you’re interested. What do you think? Remember you heard it here first!
Derek: I love it. You could swap in many different words in place of “life”.
Accounting is interesting, as long as you’re interested.
Meditation is interesting, as long as you’re interested.
Anyone is interesting, as long as you’re interested.
Derek: Nope! I don’t like live music. 🙂
Yuan Yao & Jan Gerber are not your ordinary travelers. With more than 50 countries visited under their belts, this dynamic duo knows a thing or two about traveling and, more importantly, what matters most about it. If traveling is your cup of tea, then read the the following interview as these two co-founders present a compelling new idea on an old pastime.
Allentrepreneur: Good to have you here with us Yuan & Jan! The travel industry has always been one of the most exciting to work in, and whenever a new startup comes around to try and improve things, there are always people willing to listen! Can you first tell us a little about yourselves and how you came to work together?
Yuan: Jan and I have been best friends for eight years. We both love, love, love to travel and have been to more than 50 countries each – with many more to go! Jan has a business background and has been working as a consultant all over the world for the past few years. I studied International Affairs as well as Sinology and am currently pursuing my PhD in International Business. I used to work for international organizations such as UNESCO or the UN so both Jan and I have traveled a lot for business. We complement each other perfectly so it was always clear to me that we would be a “dream team”.
Allentrepreneur: How did the idea for A La Carte Maps come about? Which problem are you trying to solve with your product?
Yuan: The idea for A la Carte Maps evolved – where else – while traveling. In fact, I was on a one year trip-around-the-world last year and got really fed up with all the guidebooks that claim to have “the best insider tips”. What exactly is an “insider tip”? Are we talking about the insights of a traveler? An editor with a functioning Google search? A restaurant that has paid big bucks for a flattering review?
Personally, I have had the best travel experiences when a local showed me around. The idea behind A la Carte Maps is to have a local friend in exciting cities all over the world. Not only will this friend provide you with the most important information about your city, he or she also knows where-(not)-to-go and will reveal the city’s best-kept insider tips by writing them on a hand-drawn map.
So: No more browsing the internet for days. No more carrying heavy guidebooks. No more circle-drawing on ugly maps. No more worrying. Just kick back, relax and save time (and money) for the important things in life. Our local guides will gather the best ideas to make your stay unforgettable in the meanwhile.
Allentrepreneur: As a long time traveler I have often come to the realization that guidebooks are, although informative, often inconvenient. However, for most travelers, one of the first things to do when preparing for a trip is to buy one. What would you say is the problem with guidebooks these days?
Yuan: Conventional tourist guidebooks are boring, outdated and similar in their setup. Most of them are unpractical – you want to go out but the maps & addresses are in your clumsy guidebook – or too informative to be truly useful. 80 restaurant tips for instance may be a little overwhelming for a weekend trip. So, what I need is a succinct list of the city’s not-to-be-missed:
– Best place to impress? (1-2 recommendations)
– Best view? (1-2 recommendations)
– Best restaurant for local food?
– Best place for a date? (1-2 recommendations)
– Best things to do on a rainy day?
– Something I have definitely never done before and can only do in this city?
Jan: Furthermore, most maps in guidebooks are too small – especially if there are 100 little numbers indicating recommended locations splattered all over them. Regular maps on the other hand are unhandy, ugly and made of cheap material that falls apart quickly. Since the map is the tool you use the most while traveling, why not make it a beautiful one?
Allentrepreneur : While walking around the travel section at the bookstore, I noticed that publications such as Lonely Planet, Frommer’s, etc. have come out with many iterations of much more condensed guidebooks, such as Top 10 or Day by Day. What are your thoughts on this particular segment of the market? Would you say A La Carte Maps is a reliable competitor to these guides?
Jan: We do not see any existing publication as direct competition. The Top 10 or Day by Day you mention are in many ways different from our maps: Our aim is not just to have condensed information on a map, but the nature of that information is special. It has been compiled by a local, and the tips are focusing on things to see and do „off the beaten track“. The content of most guidebooks, no matter how dense, has been compiled by traveling editors rather than locals that have lived in the city. Furthermore, our maps are in a handy format (42x70cm), made of high-quality material and additionally matt-laminated which makes them moisture-resistant and durable. Also, when you buy one of our maps, you get access to our online database of the given city, where a broad array of additional insider tips can be searched and printed.
Yuan: In my opinion, there is one more aspect that really sets us apart from regular guidebooks: Our maps are very, very, very personal. Not only do you get a welcome letter with every map written by your friend in that city, many of the tips are also hand-written. Since you have a different friend depending on where you go to, there’s always a different handwriting in every city. Furthermore, the maps are designed by young artists trying to capture the spirit of the city making each map unique in its appearance. In a world of mass produced guidebooks and maps, our maps will definitely stand out as each one of them is made with a lot of love and passion. And that is something you can see and feel – but not copy.
Allentrepreneur: In one of your press releases, I came across the term flashpackers. You describe them as: backpackers who love to journey in style. Can you elaborate more on this kind of traveler?
Yuan: There are many guidebooks for classical low-budget backpackers as well as high-end travelers. However, there is not much for the segment in-between which we call “flashpackers” – backpackers that love to journey in style. “Flashpackers” don’t backpack because they have to but because they want to. Even though they enjoy splurging a little money now and then, they don’t want to spend their entire vacation in gourmet restaurants, shopping streets or posh clubs that are – let’s be honest – more or less the same all over the world. Instead, they seek an authentic travel experience off the beaten track: Wherever they go, they never go there as “tourists”. Whenever possible, they try to grasp the city’s spirit by breathing it. Living it. Embracing it like the locals do.
“Flashpackers” are independent, curious, smart, passionate, sophisticated and adventurous. They don’t have a fixed itinerary, love the uncommon and are not afraid of the unknown. Instead of just seeing things, they want to experience them.
What would be a perfect holiday for a “flashpacker”? Walk through the old town without seeing a single tourist all morning, have lunch in a food stall on the street, catch some sun in a park where children fly kites nearby and enjoy a traditional massage before heading back to the boutique hotel in order to get ready for a fancy night out (and why not pick a club that is frequented by locals).
Allentrepreneur: As a Swiss-based startup, can you tell us what are the challenges involved in reaching a worldwide audience? What strategies do you have in place in order to market your product?
Jan: We naturally use the most common marketing and distribution tool available today for a global strategy, the internet. Customers can order online via our website, and the orders will be processed at regional distribution centers across the globe. Our aim is to keep this the main distribution channel for our maps. However, we do have regional marketing strategies for every city map that we have brought out so far. Furthermore, we receive more and more inquiries by wholesalers, bookshops, etc. and of course, we try to satisfy the demand from alternative channels. As for the direct marketing of our products, we focus on various online and print media. We do not advertise, but rather catch the attention of major publications. This has proved a very promising way to make people aware of A la Carte Maps.
Allentrepreneur: What is the process behind the creation of one of your maps? So far, I understand that each map is hand-drawn by local artists and filled with insider information from local guides. How do you go about choosing the right ones?
Yuan: Our artists are from all over the world (not necessarily local artists) but the insider information is always from locals. All of our local guides are anonymous and we pride ourselves on a strict “no tea money” policy: We don’t accept any paid advertising, free products/services, goodies, bribes and so on. All the things and tips are on our maps, because we like them. It`s as simple as that.
At the moment, all of our local guides are either friends or friends of our friends. That way, we can guarantee the quality of our content as we have been to all the cities (we have maps of) at least once and have tried out many of the recommendations ourselves.
Allentrepreneur: Once a local guide has been found, what are the criteria involved in choosing what information makes it into one of your maps? How often do you update that information?
Yuan: All of our local guides are required to talk to at least 15-20 people from different backgrounds (tourists, teenagers, young professionals, middle aged art lovers, expats, locals etc.) in order to gather as many insider tips as possible based on various categories. Out of all these tips, only the best of the best make it onto the map. This process takes a lot of time as we are very demanding when it comes to our maps.
As mentioned before, we focus on tips “off the beaten track” that travelers won’t find in any other publication. As an example, we recommend travelers to have lunch at the cafeteria of a Chinese university in Shanghai. This is a truly authentic China experience and definitely something different!
We update our information monthly on our website. For the printed version, the updates depend on need. So: In a city like Shanghai (as an example) where things change so quickly, we might have a new edition every six months. In Zurich on the other hand, we might bring out a new edition every two years.
Allentrepreneur: A La Carte Maps are printed on beautiful gloss paper and are a visual treat. The packaging is also very well done and shows that a lot of thought has been put into it. Can you tell us a bit about the printing process and its costs?
Jan: It is our aim to provide a high-quality product. Not only has the content been developed with great care and effort, we also don’t compromise with the material. From the very beginning, the selection of the right material and provider of the same has been a main priority. We have searched globally for the right partner to produce our maps. We finally decided to produce our maps in China and from there directly ship to our distribution centers. Unfortunately, we cannot reveal any information with regard to our financials.
Allentrepreneur: Has the startup experience been a good one for you so far? What would you say is the most important aspect of setting up a new product in a crowded market?
Jan: It has been a great experience. Though the workload is tremendous, it is a lot of fun. And learning new things (from printing techniques, international freight shipping, to licensing agreements, etc.) every day is a great reward of doing something new. We would not consider our market crowded: We believe that our target audience (“flashpackers”) has been underserved so far which is why we are convinced to have discovered a niche market. We move away from the mass-travel guide market and offer a combination of guidebook, map and art in one high-quality product which is very personal and truly unique.
Allentrepreneur: And finally, what further innovation can we expect from the travel industry and A La Carte Maps in the future?
Yuan: I believe that there will be a trend towards mass customization. New markets – demographically as well as geographically – will open up so there will be a lot of space for innovations.Travelers are becoming more sophisticated and demanding. Instead of seeing things, they want to experience and learn things. Of course, the internet will also continue to have a crucial impact on the travel industry.
Regarding innovations to expect from us: Let us surprise you. We do have a couple of exciting ideas so you’ll hear about us.